Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 1717
Location: At the Gates
Posted:
Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:20 pm
Apologies to our foreign visitors, but feel free to also discuss forthcoming elections in your area as well, of if you do indeed have an opinion on our politics feel free to voice it.
I write this some what pissed off due to the utter fucking stupidity of the general population, in particular in NSW. We have two elections this year where current polling shows that the incumbent government in the federal office will be ousted and the incumbent government in the state election will remain in power.
Both governments have been in power for around 12 years (since 96 for the federal govt and 95 i think for the state government) and for each there is contradicting sentiment as for why the polls favour each particular party. So a brief (very brief) recap of the last decade or so of politics:
State
NSW is the most fucked over state in Australia. Why? Because we have the worst of all the state governments. We have been managed by a pack of incompetent, scandalous, socially oblivious idiots who for some reason continue to escape the wrath of the public. For those of you who don't know, the state government manages the following key areas:
- Roads / Transport
- Healthcare (hospitals etc, but not medicare)
- Water
- Primary and secondary education
- Power
- GST spending / state taxes
Now if you think of the major issues over the last decade, where have we had major problems? I mean hell, the stuff I have below is pretty much only limited to what I recall over the last 12 mths.
1. Roads / Transport: Sydney's roads are also the worst in Australia. We just had a government backed and initiated cross city tunnel in Sydney go broke with the government likely to be sued post being re-elected due to changes they have made to inner city roads that break contractual obligations. A main highway (pacific) that is billions over budget and years behind completion targets, generally poor road management and maintenance across non-freshly developed suburbs and a general major lack of appropriate road infrastructure
Transport is awful. Buses dont run anywhere near to schedule and are inappropriately managed. Trains have been a fiasco for years, with idiotic mistakes, again poor management and a general inability to meet expectations.
2. Healthcare: Underfunded hospitals, large public waiting queues and insufficient professional and clerical staff to manage them. The only saving grace has been federal government initiatives such as the medicare rebate that encourage private healthcare
3. Water: Water restrictions that have gone on for god knows how long, a plan to build a dam near newcastle (he most water rich area of the state) to service said area and no concrete plan to fix current water issues across the rest of the state - sure there are patch-work operations being undertaken, but nothing that will solve infrastructure solutions for future generations.
4. Primary and secondary education: General mismanagement of funds, lack of appropriate teaching staff and an overly clerical staff focused department. For example, near me there are 2 public schools that operate at around 60% capacity - Hunters Hill High and Riverside Girls High. Clearly both these schools could be merged reducing overheads and increasing per student teaching staff. But the government continues to operate both at great financial cost, rather than channeling funds to more appropriate areas
5. Power: Power stations that regularly in Sydney heatwaves, burn out and fail to service who sections of the community for hours on end. Again due to a lack of spending on appropriate infrastructure
6. GST spending / state taxes: We have the two most ridiculous taxes in the world - PAYROLL and LAND tax. Both inhibit business, overtax the middle class and are archaic forms of taxation not seen anywhere else in the world. Per capita NSW gets the lowest GST return from the national pool - effectively our GST spend subsidises QLD, WA and the NT. All of which was agreed upon by the state governments back in 1999 pre GST.
In addition to this, a number of scandalous affairs of ministers being sacked due to incompetence and issues relating to the above. The fuck ups and issues are endless. YET we want to re-elect the clowns? Why the fuck are they polling so well? People argue its better the devil that you know, but we couldnt really do any worse than what we are, with this stale incompetent government.
Federal
At a federal level, we have seen 12 consistent years of economic growth, low inflation, low interest rates, low public sector debt, low levels of unemployment, falling taxes, controlled government spending and prettty scandal free experience. Prior to the current government being elected we had a recession with out of control interest rates, record levels of unemployment and a debt you could sink a ship with.
I mean if you honestly think about the big issues in the last 12 years, its fairly limited and one off in circumstance. There is very little to debate and even less to complain about. Tertiary education has perhaps been an issue, but students always complain - they will never be happy with funding. The fact of the matter is, you dont have to pay a cent to go to uni until you earn sufficient money to repay it, even if that debt is rising.
Other issues - children overboard + troops in iraq. Whilst there are debates either side, none of major national concern and pale in comparison to the cock ups at state level.
Yet this government is to be voted out? The main argument? We are stagnant. Its "time for a change". Get the fuck out. If it aint broke, dont fix it. Why would you drop a vase to see if you can put it back together?
Discuss.
(that got a bit long, and i got lazy towards the end, so ill likely edit later).
_________________
Nekron Lawful Metalhead
Joined: Jun 29, 2006
Posts: 134
Location: Perth WA
Posted:
Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:34 am
I also wonder how people can be so stupid to believe some of the shit the opposition is feeding them. The fact of the matter is that the Federal Government has proven over the years, time and time again, that they can get the results and get the job done. Would Australia be going through its largest economic boom ever under the Labour government?
I agree. If it aint broke, dont fix it.
byrne HM Administrator
Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 1717
Location: At the Gates
Posted:
Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:17 pm
I have a lot more to say about state politics - largely due to the fact that in the federal realm, there isnt a whole lot wrong - i mean fuck, what is there to REALLY complain about. You are totally correct - it boils down to ignorance; people haven't got a clue about even the most basic economic principles, and therefore take sound economic management for granted. Concepts like;
- if the Federal govt spends more in the federal budget than in the previous year it becomes an "expansionary" budget, which causes price pressures, causing wage pressures, which increases inflation and ultimately increasing interest rate pressures - and so the cycle continues
- the fact that in the light of key commodity price growth (eg bananas and petrol - which are part of the CPI basket that measures inflation) - we have had contractionary monetary policy (ie increasing interest rates) but have had continued economic growth.
Also, what the fuck is increasing Rudd's popularity? Nothing. He has no policies. He has barely even given an opinion on the Iraqi war. Making empty/vague comments like "we disagree with sending troops to Iraq and will withdraw troops from there, subject to the need for them to be there" (to paraphrase). WHAT is his stance there? Answer: he doesnt have one.
It's also all well and good to say "this area of the community needs attention" - but where are you going to fund it? Increase taxes? Decrease funding on something else? Or just spend some of the surplus which leads to price, wage, inflation and interest rate pressures? Comments are made, but nothing backs them up.
Then again on the state election - I'll concede it has been a disgrace from both the Liberal and Labor ends. The whole campaign has just been smearing the opposition, no one has any fucking policies. Its like a big high school bitch fight. And why? Because thats what people want to know about. And why (again)? Because they know nothing about the actual mechanics of politics.
Nice work NSW public.
_________________
oliver HM Staff
Joined: Mar 20, 2004
Posts: 722
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posted:
Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:41 pm
I'm working at the elections so I'll be happy no matter what. Totally agree that the state government is beyond incompetent. The federal government has a great Fiscal Policy and have done very well to encourage growth, but they do need to remove focus from stupid issues such as the 1.7bn dollar advertising campaign to push through the industrial relations changes...
Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 1717
Location: At the Gates
Posted:
Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:12 pm
This is what originally kicked off my debate on current politics in Aus. I saw in Amanda's lastfm "Vote 1 Kevin Rudd". This is my response to her lastfm shoutbox comments:
Anyone feel free to join in, particularly Labor supporters who are for some dim-witted reason voting blindly in favour of either Iemma or Rudd.
Amanda wrote:
The reality is that under keating we floated the dollar and diversified our markets to Asia. The restructuring that has lead to the current economic conditions was attributed to Keating. Any economist ill tell you that. also Howard hasn't managed the economy well, he just moved the national debt into the foreign account trade deficit. It pea and thimble economics, he just moved the debt.
You got your facts totally wrong. The dollar floated in 1983 - Hawke was the PM, Keating was the Treasurer. What that has to do with anything, I have no idea. But whatever. Diversified into Asia? So? That simply promotes economic growth and a lower trade deficit. It has no direct link to economic instability. In fact, the instability seen in Asia (if you remember the "Asian economic crisis") occurred under the Howard government, but was not the governments fault - this is enterprise acting in free market conditions and anyhow we managed to pull through pretty much unscathed as a nation.
National debt and the trade deficit are totally different concepts, something you seem to fail to understand. National debt is the government owing money and only impacts the trade deficit when we owe money overseas (a very small portion of the trade deficit itself). We are a net importer of goods because, like most 1st world western economies, standards of living promote net importation. The single biggest impact on trade deficit is the exchange rate - which, if anything got better when we floated the dollar because our exchange rate fell in value, and due to the fact that our exports are highly sensitive to the value of the AUD, changes in the FX rate heavily impact our current account deficit.
What Howard did, was not move national debt to a trade deficit (I don't even see how that is possible) - he repayed national debt (and possibly lowered the trade deficit by repaying foreign debt). I.e. when governments like ... ooohhh ... say LABOR spent more money than they earnt (i.e. spending from fiscal policy > tax income) they had to borrow through bond issuance (i.e. national debt). This is now either completely, or nearly completely retired, meaning we aren't paying interest anymore ... instead we have a surplus going into a "future fund". How that is bad (which I assume you are arguing) I have no idea ....
Amanda wrote:
Plus he double taxed us with the GST and has spent no money on schools, health and education. Needless to say no money on infrastructure..
Your clear lack of understand of GST and what it replaced, shows the fact that you have little more than a rudimentary understanding of politics, economic theory and how our tax system works. The STATES (all of which are under LABOR governments) are responsible for the spending of ALL GST incomes. Blame them if you fail to see spending at sufficient
levels, not the federal government. In addition to this, GST REPLACED individual taxes such as wholesale sales tax, which were as high as 35% (possibly more) on some goods (vs 10%).
Our biggest infrastructure issues flow from a number of areas - and whilst the federal govt hasnt nailed it yet, the state governments (which as I mentioned are all incompetent Labor governments) are the most lack-luster controlling hospitals, primary and secondary education, roads, transport, power AND water. They are the ones fucking up the most. The federal government is doing a relatively good job in this respect.
Amanda wrote:
The only thing argumental that I see can be raised is that interest rates are low, well If you own a house you should be smart enough to realize that the current state of the economy is built on selling iron ore and gas to china, which is something that howard opposed when he was in opposition and we were in power.
Interest rates are low, unemployment is low, inflation is controlled and we have economic growth. When Keating was in government, we had a recession including; high levels of unemployment, high interest rates (18% vs today 6%), out of control inflation and a massive national debt. Also, although I don't know the facts re: Howard supposedly "opposing" exporting minerals to China, it sounds like bullshit. Why? Because (a) it is private enterprise that does it - nothing to do with the government, (b) Howard has deregulated the economy which fosters such private enterprise, (c) it just sounds fucking stupid.
I challenge you (or anyone) - what the fuck is Rudd going to do? He has an incompetent front bench, no policies and is basically riding a media frenzy that has no basis for actually ousting Howard. It's because of ignorant people (such as yourself) that we will end up back in another "recession" which we "have to have" and with a fully Labor controlled country where middle class working folk who don't own their own business get fucked through incentive schemes that benefit people who abuse welfare.
Open INTELLIGENT debate welcome. No incoherent bleeding heart babble please.
_________________
Nekron Lawful Metalhead
Joined: Jun 29, 2006
Posts: 134
Location: Perth WA
Posted:
Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:10 am
The only stance I see Rudd taking is that he opposes everything Howard does, which is pretty rudimentary, seeing as how he is the opposition leader.
Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 1717
Location: At the Gates
Posted:
Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:38 pm
i assume by your lack of reply you will be voting for the liberal govt at the federal election at least, given i disproved absolutely everything you thought was either bad about the liberal party or good about the labor party?
and for those who think im kidding, im not. im dead serious about this matter - im not a political activist, but im sick of the fact that people are generally entirely ignorant to how matters of national importance work, but feel they are entitled to voice their opinion on it.
_________________
Nekron Lawful Metalhead
Joined: Jun 29, 2006
Posts: 134
Location: Perth WA
Posted:
Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:19 am
I saw on the news last night that Rudd intends to use a large amount (didnt catch how much exactly) of Supperannuation funds to upgrade broadband technology.
Shouldnt this be left to the private sector? If Telstra, Optus, etc had better services, then they stand to profit from it, but what the fuck is the government going to do?
you raise some interesting points. However it is basically just regurgitating Tory ideology. So clearly you agrees that Keating floated the dollar. In regards to the trade deficit clearly he has no understanding that the implications of a credit based economy leads to a massive blow out in the trade sector. All howard has done is encouraged us to spend money we don't have. And apparently that's responsible. A recent survey by the financial review showed that if interest rates were ti increase only a moderate 2% then 28% of mortgage holders would lose their homes. As for unemployment rates, a person working three hours a week is not employed. You cant claim unemployment rates are low by changing the rules on how they are measured. The reality is this. People in this country want a change, labor is the natural government in Australia. We are way ahead in the polls because Australians are sick of high taxes, low spending and the complete destruction of their civil and industrial rights. So let him jump on beard a ship that is sinking in a sea of arrogance, corruption and lies.
Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 1717
Location: At the Gates
Posted:
Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:30 am
I have no idea what "Tory" ideology is - I studied economics for 5 years and never heard it even mentioned, so I'm assuming it has nothing to do with economic theory and/or has little credibility as being anything new or accurate.
I didn't agree that Keating floated the dollar - its a fact, it was never in debate. He just wasn't PM at the time as you suggested.
There is no such thing as the "trade sector". In the 5 sector economic model (which is the generally accepted basis for looking at how an economy works at a macro level) there are the following:
1 Households
2 Firms/business
3 Financial
4 Government
5 Overseas
A "credit" based economy? This is just technology and the willingness of people to borrow to money to spend more - and as I already said, there are very few western worlds with similar standards of living that don't spend the majority of their incomes. In fact the only one that I can think of that doesn't (or didn't, im not up to date re: this) is Japan, who spent years in recession. Recession = unemployment, no/negative economic growth and falling standards of living (in theory, but you would have to have a recession / depression for a VERY long time to see falling standards of living). You do know that recession / depression is a BAD thing dont you??
Again, you have misunderstood basic economic principles that leaves chasms in your argument. I have already pointed out that the government has retired debt that remained as a legacy of the Labor government and that the Howard government is now a net saver - i.e. they tax more than they spend. So how exactly are they encouraging "spending money we dont have"?
All economists will tell you that controlled growth of around 5% p.a. is ideal for an economy - which is broadly what we have seen over the last 11 years. At a very simplistic level, this means people on the whole earn more income than they did 11 years ago - what they choose to do with it, is their business - be it saving or spending. This is not a government decision - its an individuals. The only influences the government can have on this are:
1 Tax relatively more and not spend it (i.e. forcing saving)
2 Minimise inflationary pressure ensure that buying power remains consistent or betters itself (which Howard has done)
Now as far as interest rates go, again you clearly dont understand the basic principles behind what is affecting interest rates, nor do you appear to realise that the government does not directly control them.
Interest rates (or monetary policy) are controlled by the RBA and is done to manage inflation. Inflation is a measure of price growth (via the consumer price index - CPI). Controlling price rises does a multitude of things - including the controlling the cost of a home. Interest rates are not set in response to affordability of mortgages, because if you control price pressure in the first instance, you dont have to worry about the cost of lending.
Also 2% is a huge rise, like fucking huge. The RBA has been pretty steady in moving interest rates - like 0.25% at a time and because inflation is quite controlled and there is a lag between when monetary policy is exercised and when the effects are seen (no defined period - but it is typically about 18 months). It is highly unlikely that another 2% rise (given recent hikes in rates) would be seen for years and that's assuming there isn inflationary pressure in the economy.
So your statistic is pretty irrelevant. If people have been stupid enough to over-borrow there isnt much the government can do. They can't baby them because you need to assume people will act rationally.
The definition of unemployment has not changed. AT ALL. What the fuck are you talking about? Even your beloved Labor hasn't argued that unemployment is bad. So why are you trying to?
What is the reason for Labor being the "natural" government? What the fuck does that even mean? Unless you are referring to the fact that the people who run that party are idiots, much like the majority of the people in the country, I don't understand what you are talking about.
Sick of high taxes? Income taxes were increased under the Labor government, and have only been decreased under the Liberal government. Overall taxing has been decreased since the Liberal government came to power. I'll give you they spend less - but in the long run it will be for the better - because we are no longer paying interest on the debts that Labor created.
Destruction of civil rights? Fucking christ, what are you talking about? Give me one example? And on the odd chance you actually come up with something, give me Labor's position on it as well - and not just a "we disagree with it" - I want to know what their action would have been.
Industrial rights? I'm not going to type anymore, because I'm pretty bored with conntinually proving you wrong, but stop making such generic sweeping statements. All you have done so far is dropped a bunch of catch-cries that you see as arguments against the Howard government:
Instead, choose 1 (that's all I ask) of your given "issues" and come up with;
1. A concrete example of the issue
2. Tell me what Labor's position is (and how they propose to action it)
And I'll argue the Liberal side.
If you can't, I expect you will vote Liberal in September or whenever it is because I can't honestly see a single reason to vote Labor.
_________________
Slavestick Barbaric Metalhead
Joined: Nov 05, 2006
Posts: 189
Location: The Nameless City of the Accursed
Posted:
Sat Mar 24, 2007 11:27 am
Fuck, politics shits me to the core. I do think either of the major parties will do a better job and they certainly aren't talking much about anything except saying "Don't vote for them, their shit".
_________________ Your souls shall have no existence.......
Fuckin Howard is a goof ball cut his balls off i say, in fact all politicans are fucking clown pants this country would be run better by a bunch of shit throwing Apes that have an Ice addiction but hey thats just my opinion.....
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